CIVICS NEWS
December 31, 2009
The American Tract Society is, to my knowledge, a reputable Christian organization that has historically been devoted to the advancement of the gospel (albeit utilizing fear tactics and thus painting a distorted picture of God from time to time). They should be applauded for their work for nearly 200 years in pointing people to the salvation found in Jesus. Given all of this, I regret the need to offer some public, constructive criticism of their latest tract.
No, this critique is not directed at the all too standard "turn-or-burn" tracts that have littered American evangelical circles for years. The subject of this article is this tract (I will not call it a "Gospel Tract") that troubled me greatly. It is entitled, "War in Afghanistan: The Price of Freedom." The tract reads:
My first critique of this tract is similar to that which I made in a previous post (Christians: Let's Disavow Nationalism and Cease Praying to the God of War). Simply put, the continual references to "our" military and "our" troops are not consistent with a Christian organization's mission to represent the body of Christ and to call people into citizenship in the Kingdom of God. If a Christian organization says "us," it ought to be referring primarily to either the community of believers or humanity in general. Where in the New Testament are Christians permitted to identify so prominently with the military force of a worldly kingdom, with the tribal nationalistic identity of human governments? [See Chapter 7 of The Way, the Truth and the Sword.]At the present time the United States has troops deployed in Afghanistan fighting for the freedom of their people. America has long fought for and defended freedom in our country and around the world, beginning with the Revolutionary War and continuing up to the present. Many other times since then, our country has fought for democracy and against tyranny. Over the last 200 years many countries around the world have been released from oppression because American troops were willing to pay the price for freedom. We have helped liberate millions of people.
The Fight Against Oppression and Poverty
Our country became involved in the Afghanistan struggle shortly after the events of September 11, 2001. The United States sent troops to Afghanistan to capture Osama bin Laden and other high-ranking members of the Al-Qaeda terrorist network. The United States is also striving to break the yoke of the Taliban in that country. American troops defend and support the people of Afghanistan in their struggle against oppression and poverty.
Service and Sacrifice
Our troops have killed or captured many terrorists since the War on Terror began. Americans should have great pride in the valor of our military personnel in Afghanistan. Quite often we encounter our brave troops dressed in camouflage in airports, restaurants, and other public places. At these times we should express our appreciation to them for their service and sacrifice. The fight for freedom has a high cost. Many of our courageous soldiers have suffered injury during combat in Afghanistan. Many of our soldiers have lost their lives in the conflict there. They have paid the supreme sacrifice for freedom.
Secondly, though the gospel is presented as an after-thought at the end of their pro-war statement, the bulk of this tract has NOTHING to do with the gospel! Regardless of what opinion you take on the war, shouldn't every Christian oppose a tract that confuses a political agenda with the gospel? What kind of message are we sending to the world? The unsuspecting recipient of this tract would inevitably conclude that the church is an organization that supports war, supports the Bush-Obama imperial policies, and believes in the myth of the benevolent American Empire. Even if a reasonable Christian could rightly hold such positions (more on this below), this government propaganda has no place whatsoever on a gospel tract. Shouldn't this be obvious to Christians across the political spectrum? Jesus lived and taught in a politically charged world, but he taught an ideology that transcended each of the partisan responses of his contemporaries: violence, narrow elitism, escapism and compromise (the ideologies of the Zealots, the Pharisees, the Essenes, and the Herodians, respectively). The gospel is not a political agenda.
To bring the point home more clearly, the most offensive facet of this tract is the war policy that it so adamantly supports. The objective observer cannot read the New Testament and conclude that the the way of Jesus embraces anything but committed non-violence. Jesus commands us to love our enemies. Period. And the apostles reiterate this teaching. It is a crystal clear teaching, and it is not possible to love somebody while killing them and their families. If these tracts are supposed to be Bible tracts, I challenge the American Tract Society to re-issue a revised version of this tract with New Testament justification for the avid Christian support of war, and if New Testament Scriptures cannot be found to support this view, then the Society should do the right thing and discontinue the tract with a statement of repentance.
It comes as no surprise that the Christian church was committed to non-violence (until the fall of the church at the time of Constantine); after all, non-violence is the clear and obvious teaching of Jesus and the apostles. Among the American Tract Society's "Core Values" is the goal "to conduct this ministry with integrity and fidelity to Jesus Christ and Holy Scripture." There is a clear contradiction here. It is absolutely tragic that Christianity--which was founded in large part as a spiritual and social response to a powerful Roman government and whose founder was martyred by the empire of his day for inaugurating a new and better Kingdom--is now putting out tracts that communicate the view that Christianity and imperial warfare are natural allies, rather than natural opponents. [See Chapter 5 of The Way, the Truth and the Sword.]
Well, the tract ends with an attempt at the statement of the gospel, which was unfortunately undermined if not completely negated by the previous militaristic paragraphs on the tract. The gospel presentation at the end of the tract reads:
The Ultimate SacrificeThis portion of the tract presents the all-too-common and completely disgusting comparison between militarism and Jesus. That is, the military--which orders its victim-enforcers to "free" people in foreign countries by invading their land, bombing their cities, and knowingly (and therefore deliberately) killing civilians--is likened unto the sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross. This comparison should deeply trouble every Christian. Though it is not new (see previous post, "The Battle "Hymn" of the Republic"), the comparison between predator drones killing people on behalf of the American imperial government on the one hand, with the humble lamb of God on the other hand, is borderline blasphemous to the Christ-follower. It's one of the most offensive possible comparisons from the point of view of a citizen of the Kingdom of Heaven who embraces Jesus' teachings of peace-making, cheek-turning, and enemy-love.
Over 2000 years ago the ultimate sacrifice was made for mankind. A great victory was won to provide freedom for each one of us. It was the victory over sin and death. Jesus Christ sacrificed His life when He died on the cross and rose from the dead to set us free. Jesus was more than a hero. He was the Savior of the world. The Bible reveals that we are all sinners (Romans 3:23), and sin prevents us from having a relationship with God. The penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23).
Our brave men and women in the military die to save fellow soldiers and fight to set people free. Jesus Christ died on the cross to save us from sin and death. He sacrificed His life for us on the cross.
We will all remember the brave men and women in the military who have sacrificed their lives for our country and to set others free in Afghanistan and around the world. But Jesus Christ sacrificed His life to free us from sin and death so that we might have peace and everlasting life. Will you place your trust in Jesus Christ today and receive Him as your Savior from sin? You can pray a prayer like this: Dear Jesus, I confess that I am a sinner. Thank you for dying on the cross for my sins. I ask you to forgive me of my sins, and to grant me the gift of everlasting life. I now trust in you as my Savior.
It has been said that if you want to identify what it is that you you idolize above God, ask yourself the following question: "For what ends are you are willing to kill or support the killing of an image-bearer of God?" None of us are without sin, but the American Tract Society has revealed their idol. They have demonstrated that political "freedom," which they mistakenly believe is purchased through dropping bombs and firing missiles at people, is worth more than the lives of the innocent victims of American aggression.
Much could be said regarding the unbelievable horror of being a victim of the most powerful empire in human history. Much more could be said regarding the myth of the benevolent American empire, the lies surrounding the war in Afghanistan, and the false picture of God that we show the world when we so vocally support violence.
Yes, this article is direct, to-the-point, and openly critical of the American Tract Society. Why is this necessary? It is not fun to rebuke people with whom I share a common faith. I don't make a habit in my daily life of judging, rebuking and correcting those with whom I disagree. However, when public spokespersons for Jesus so violently misrepresent his message, and so thoroughly distort the picture of God that we are trying to paint for the world, it is unfortunately essential for the prophetic voice of non-violence to counter the violent ideologies that creep into the church and misrepresent Jesus.
The mission of Civics News is to put a spot-light on the crimes of government and to call Christians to "put not their trust in princes," but instead to turn their eyes upon Jesus, who is the perfect representation of a loving God. I beg those at the American Tract Society: reconsider the path you've taken. I ask you in love to turn your eyes back to Jesus and to follow his teachings and his example, since you bear a great responsibility of sharing his gospel of peace and reconciliation with the world.
I also open myself to critique, as I want to receive the light of truth in areas where I am yet in darkness. I am not the judge of another person's heart, but we ought to discern, identify, and speak against false doctrines that paint a misleading picture of God for the world upon which many souls will base their choice of whether or not to follow this God.
So, American Tract Society, let us journey together toward a clearer understanding of Jesus and let us refine our presentation of the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, which, above all else, is a kingdom of love.
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Scott Ritsema is the author of The Way, the Truth, and the Sword: A New Christian Civics in an Age of Coercive Power. He holds a M.A. in Social Science and teaches high school Advanced Placement American Government, Civics, and Economics in Grand Rapids, Michigan.
"In war, the first casualty is the truth." --Aeschuylus
ReplyDeleteThanks for this article. I noted that the American Tract Society has an easy web contact and mailing address here: http://www.atstracts.org/contact.php
ReplyDeletePerhaps several of us could contact ATS Board of Directors or staff with an appeal to discontinue this tract that read quite like war propaganda.
Thank you, Scott. It is time for the followers of Jesus to stop waging war on the innocent by "supporting our troops". If you really care about them, then bring them home NOW.
ReplyDeleteStop supporting the MURDER of Iraqis, Palestinians, Afghans, Pakistanis and now the Yemenese.
Christians, 9-11 was an inside job perpetrated by the Israeli Mossad and the US CIA. Why then are we not invading Israel and creating murderous havoc on that land?
Christians, wake up. You have blood on your hands.
You people remind me of Neville Chamberlain. There is way more blood on the hands of "peace at any price" fools like him than those who fight a righteous cause. War never stopped anything except: Napolean becoming king of Europe, slavery in America, and the holocaust. Millions of jews died because Neville Chamberlain would not stand up to Hitler like Winston Churchill did later. Learn some history before you twist Christianity to fit you anti-American trash propaganda.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous, perhaps you are somewhat new to the site, so I thought I would briefly tell you a bit about my perspective. First of all, I believe that Jesus' life and teachings are a reflection of the character of God and are the supreme doctrine that Christians are to follow. So when Jesus says that we are to love our enemies, and when Jesus washed the feet of his betrayer, taught and lived non-violently toward his enemies, and died on a cross for all of those who hated him, I say “WOW, now THAT is the kind of life I want to live.” I want to love my enemies as myself. So, as I understand it, if I were to depart from this ideal, that would be a twisting of Christianity. Jesus and the teachings of the New Testament are the measure for what true Christianity is. I hope that I'm being faithful to that. If you believe I'm twisting Christianity, please let me know specifically where I can improve in my fidelity to Jesus' teachings.
ReplyDeleteOn another matter, I thought I'd mention that I absolutely love America. The founding fathers, through the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution set up the best form of government known to man. I do look forward to the completion of the Kingdom of God, which will make human governments unnecessary, but for the time being, the “chains of the Constitution” (as Jefferson put it) serve a very important purpose in restraining the evils of big government and militarism. So, politically speaking, I'm Jeffersonian. If being a devotee to the libertarian political philosophy of Thomas Jefferson is “anti-American” then call me an anti-American. But in all seriousness, the reason why I'm so critical of the U.S. Government is because I LOVE America and its founding principles of freedom of conscience, property rights, individual liberty, limited government, and federalism.
A brief comment on the history of Chamberlain and Churchill will do. First, read Pat Buchanan's book, “Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War” http://www.amazon.com/Churchill-Hitler-Unnecessary-War-Britain/dp/030740515X Buchanan explains how foolish it was to give a war guarantee to defend Poland, and how a war that was fought to free Poland ended up with not only Poland, but all of Eastern Europe in slavery. Not to mention the tens of millions of people that died in the war. The war did not stop the Holocaust and was not intended to. FDR could have saved many Jews by allowing them into the U.S., but that was not permitted. But regardless of how you read the history leading up to World War II, is it really reasonable to apply the “lessons of Munich” to every place and every time where there are evil governments? I think that the neoconservative obsession with “the next Hitler” is starting to wear a little thin. You can't justify constant warfare and a world empire on the pretext of stopping “the next Hitler.” In the process, you come to resemble that Hitler that you're supposedly fighting against.
Thank you for the critique, Anonymous. I appreciate the conversation, my friend.
Scott, I appreciate your kind and informative response to Anonymous. Sadly, too many "patriotic Americans" like him confuse empire with patriotism. I pray your comments and references will open his eyes and many others to the truth.
ReplyDeleteAs a former Marine I wholeheatedly agree with what you say. I had hoped that Obama would have taken us out of both iraq and Afghanistan but alas it is not to be. But we as Christians should seek peace, goodwill, and to pray for those in these countries to become Christians but not by putting a gun to their heads.
ReplyDeleteAmerica's involvement in World War One led to Germany's defeat and forced war reparations. This led to economic and social chaos which resulted in Hitler's rise to power! The result of World War Two: the Soviet Empire,Red China,the Cold War,the Korean War and the Vietnam War! On the subject of slavery in the 19th century,other nations abolished the practice peacefully! The result of the Civil War: Sherman turned from the massacre of Southern civilians to the massacre of American Indians!
ReplyDeleteBravo! A splendid defense of true Christian values if I have ever read one!
ReplyDeleteScott, Thank you for the excellent essay. I recently wrote something along similar lines for Front Porch Republic: http://www.frontporchrepublic.com/?p=7523
ReplyDeleteI had intended to combat the error of evangelical Protestants, but I annoyed some Catholics by my mild criticism of the Just War Theory.
BTW, You must be Dutch. I went to a Reformed Church in America college in Iowa and knew some Ritsemas.
Good work!
Scott,
ReplyDeleteFor an argument very similar to the one you are making, you might want to look at my piece on what humility used to mean in Western Christianity.
Kari Konkola
http://www.tiu.edu/divinity/connect/trinityjournal/Content
"You people remind me of Neville Chamberlain."
ReplyDeleteOk Mr. History Buff: What SHOULD Neville Chamberlain have done (what COULD he have done) and why? If Winston Churchill did what Chamberlain should have done and the Jews died anyway, how do you blame those deaths on Chamberlain? You go on to say that war stopped the holocaust while in the same post admitting that the holocaust occurred; which is it?
You then claim those who work for peace of twisting Christianity to fit our anti-Americanism. I submit that it is your American nationalism that is twisting Christianity to fit your Satanic ways and I base my claim on learning about the life of Christ: what did Christ do in response to the real Roman oppression that was taking place during his day?
People just worship, as god, the deepest reflection of themselves. A vengeful, spiteful, petty human being will worship a God of anger and vengence. Everything you need to know about a person can be seen by their God. All those multitudes who believe without a hint of irony that the "Prince of Peace" will return to Earth, hideously slay 3/4 of the population, and send untold billions of human beings to Hell for all eternity because they were INTELLECTUALLY WRONG about which religion or theological dogma to believe - have absolutely zero redeeming value as human beings.
ReplyDeleteTheology debates are pointless because the problem isn't the belief, it's the human being. Bad people believe bad things and use theology to justify their prejudices. You can get ANYTHING out of the Bible, absolutely anything. If an ass looks into the Bible, no saint looks out. The Bible is just a hermenuetical mirror onto which people project their own darkness, or light.
You go,Bro.Ritsema! Excellant article! No more neo-con Christianity!
ReplyDeleteScott,
ReplyDeleteWell stated defense in response to anonymous. "Where the spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." (2 Cor 3:17) And our foeriegn policy has long been the antithesis of the Spirit of the Lord! Consequently, we are reaping what we have sown. We are, as Israel of old, fast loosing our freedom, going proudly into the abyss, waving the flag all the way and convinced that God is on our side!
I have expressed my concerns to ATS and urged them to discontinue the tract. May His grace prevail.
George, Nevada
Thanks for the encouragement, guys. I appreciate the comments! (And I also appreciate critical comments!)
ReplyDeleteDammerung, I find your comment very interesting. I agree largely with your statement that people worship what's within them. Although, I'd flip it around and say that, rather than people worshiping what they already are, they instead BECOME what they worship. It's a chicken-and-egg thing, I guess, but I really believe that God is love, and that when you focus on him, then you will become loving. That's what I've experienced. I have NOT always been loving in the past, but because of God in my life, I have been given love for others by God. The sad thing, though, is that many people have a distorted view of God; they behold and worship that, and then they become similarly distorted and warped.
And for the record (this might upset some of my Christian readers) I don't believe that God is going to send people to live an eternal life in the torturous hell-fire because of how they lived for a short period of time on earth. I do believe that there will be a judgment, because a loving God MUST purge the universe of evil. But that judgment will look very different from that imagined by many Christians. The Bible actually says that the wicked will be destroyed in the lake of fire, which is called the "second death." And also, I don't believe that people who have had no contact with the gospel will be judged for failing to respond to knowledge that they never had the chance to see.
I do slightly disagree with your view of the Bible. While for many (or most) one's theology is a mirror image of their own soul, I wouldn't throw out the baby with the bath-water. The Bible itself need not be indicted because of how people approach it. It really is possible, I think, to understand a consistent, clear system of truth from the whole of the scriptures.
I think looking for "truth" in scriptures is perhaps missing the point. Jesus taught in parables after all; deliberately fictional stories that conveyed meaning and morals arationally. If you imagine the parable of the sower to be literally "true," and proceed to spend your life searching for the sower's tomb in the same way people try to find the remains of Noah's Ark, I would suggest you have misunderstood the story. Jesus didn't teach scientific truth or formal logic, he taught compassion and forgiveness.
ReplyDeleteThis is no new phenomenon in American Christianity of course. Slave masters were quoting the Bible, Royalists were quoting the Bible, G-Dubya quoted the Bible. In my church (ohh way back when) we were taught the Bible largely in the context of self-help study guides which cherry picked verses to support a predetermined conclusion. Nowadays, I think the very idea of ennumerating verses is borderline blasphemy and certainly the original letters were not written with those markers.
There is this idea in Abrahamic religion that revelation is over. It ended with Jesus! shout Christians. It ended with Mohammad! shout Muslims. I think new revelations occur every day. New Gospels are being written by people who were as inspired as the original authors. New Apocalypses are being written by people who dive deep into their own souls. But our truth tellers and prophets these days are as persecuted and accused as the ones we read about in scriptures. Jesus was accused of blasphemy for claiming to be the Son of God but aren't we all the children of God coming into our inheritance?
I think Christianity will ALWAYS be used as a tool of violence and oppression for as long as people believe that religion is about things that happened 2000 years ago and not the things happening today.
Dammerung, I agree with much of what you've said here. Let's continue the discussion. I'll be back later, my friend.
ReplyDeleteDammerung, we agree on a lot! I agree with you that people misuse the Bible terribly and with horrific results. And I agree that the enumeration of verses is not what the original authors intended. I am also in enthusiastic agreement with you that we should embrace new light, and that God did not stop communicating with his children in the first century.
ReplyDeleteOn the parables and such that you discuss, Jesus taught in parables, yes. And as you say, he was trying to convey "meaning and morals" such as "compassion and forgiveness." I would call this "truth." It's the truth about the best way to live. And so, Jesus expressed truth through his parables, not in the story itself (it's just a story), but in the meaning behind it. The best example of this is the parable of the four soils. After telling the parable, Jesus says "he who has ears, let him hear." Because there was a truth behind what he was saying. He then goes on to explain that truth by explaining the four different ways that a human being can respond to the the love of God. I think we'd agree here?
Now, there is a difference between Jesus' parables, which were intended to be mere stories, and the historical narrative of the Bible. There really was a guy named Noah. Moses, when he wrote the Torah, did not believe himself to be writing mere parables or allegories. He, his contemporaries, and the Jewish tradition that followed, believed the flood to be a literal thing. They believed the parting of the Red Sea to be an actual historical event that subsequently defined them as a people. Etc.
This statement seems to be your central point: "I think Christianity will ALWAYS be used as a tool of violence and oppression for as long as people believe that religion is about things that happened 2000 years ago and not the things happening today.” And I agree with it. Except I'd put "Christianity" in quotes. Let me leave you with a question: Is it possible that what masquerades as Christianity is really quite the opposite? Is it possible that if we really followed Jesus' teachings and invited God to reveal new light to us about Him each day, that this would be the best possible way to live? Think about it, what if people really followed Jesus' teachings of forgiveness and compassion? And what if they did so with an open mind to grow in their understanding of God's love in the present? What possible drawbacks would this bring? How could THIS lead to violence and oppression? I submit that "Christianity" is not what Jesus had in mind.
Dammerung,
ReplyDeleteWhat if the Bible is actually God's Word? Jesus spoke in parables to to get at the heart behind the letter but Jesus himself had such a high opinion of Scripture that He stated that not one iota, not even a dot, will pass from the Law. He viewed the events of the OT as historical and the miracles as having actually occured and the prophets as bearing witness to Him. The Bible does teach that there is eternal and everlasting punishment thats like being cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 8:12). Revelation gives a glimpse into what Hell will be like as a "call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus" (Revelation 14:12) by stating that Hell will be a place where "the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night" (Rev. 14:11). It is an eternal conscious experience.
I say this only to point out how much God loved and died for sinners. He saved them from so much more than merely "annhilation" which is more in line with what Jehovah's Witnesses teach (that whoever does not believe simply stops existing at the judgement). I think some people would be just fine with living however they want to live on earth and then to just become dirt and not have any other lasting consequences. We have infinitely sinned because we have sinned against an infinitely Holy God. As such the only just punishment is one that is infinite and eternal. God is so Holy that there is no other way for Him to deal with sin. But his great love is shown in that He humbled himself to the point of death, becoming sin who knew no sin, to make us Holy to be with Him for eternity. This isn't just about something that happened 2000 years ago but life and death is happening today and God's Word is lovingly telling us that a very real judgement will take place that has eternal ramifications. The God of the universe, a Holy and Just God, yes, but also a God who describes Himself as being Love itself, is saying through His word to repent and believe the good news. Let Him set you free.
And yes, thankfully, our God is a God who is and will always be our King, saving us from nauseating nationalism and the State's wars of aggression that this battle tract of the republic seems to glorify!
ReplyDeleteOn the nature of hell, read every word of this fine website:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.helltruth.com
The Bible actually does say that the wicked will become ashes. Malachi 3:4.
When it says the smoke of their torment rises forever, you have to understand that the word forever in the Greek and Hebrew means basically "for the duration." It does NOT imply an eternal forever. See here for examples in the Bible when forever didn't actually mean "forever" as we might imagine.
I'm not a Jehovah's Witness, but the Bible teaches that the wicked will perish, not live eternally (see John 3:16).
Daniel Coats...
ReplyDeleteWith all due respect, that sounded like a lot of verbal diarrhea to me. I find that simply sitting down and looking at a flower is infinitely more enlightening about the nature of God than anything ever penned by a human being. I think the universe itself is "God's Word," the infinitely unfolding Logos. I do not think "God's Word" is found in any book.
Also, I find it hard to believe that a message of the majority of mankind is going to Hell is "Good News" in any way, shape, or form. It strikes me as profoundly BAD NEWS, and I do not believe it.
Dammerung,
ReplyDeleteI too appreciate a flower or a sunset immensely and believe that the God who created it meant for His creation to speak about what kind of creator He is. The problem with this is that it is not enough. A flower does not tell me if I should worship the flower for its beauty or worship some external creator who made it. It does not tell me if my nature is good or evil, and it does not tell me if I should follow Jesus, Allah, or one of a million other gods or none of them. It does not tell me if I am held accountable for what I do with my life and whether or not there is a eternal soul inside this body. If you feel that the revelation you receive from the universe is enough, what is that based on? Put another way, if I'm right and you're wrong, and I truly worship a risen Savior, you stand to lose everything... If I'm wrong and you're right neither of us lose anything by me believing in a dead Jewish carpenter.
Scott,
I have to strongly disagree with the annhilist position. I agree that individual Greek words are hard to translate and get the exact meaning right but Jesus' own words on Hell seem to indicate that it must be a place of ongoing suffering and pain- a place of outer darkness, where the fire is not quenched, and the worm does not die (Mark 9:47). There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Obviously these tears are not shed in Heaven so it must be taking place in an alternate place where people will wish they could repent but are not able to like the rich man of Luke 16. He went to Hell, where he was in torment (Luke 16:23)and longed to have his pain be eased from the agony he was consciously feeling. It is true that individual words may be difficult to translate and structure into correct worldviews (perhaps the word perish of John 3:16 is not being translated or understood properly in your view), but the parables of Jesus and passages of other scripture together paint a picture that Hell is where people experience suffering and pain. Again I would argue that if I simply stop existing, let's say I get tossed in the lake of fire and experience pain for a brief moment, and then no longer exist, no big deal. I can do whatever I want and not really worry about it too much. That's what the majority of non-Christians believe anyway and they are fine with that situation if thats the case.
In your view on Revelation 14:11, would you say that God makes them to feel torment for a duration of time and then lets them no longer exist? I'm trying not to sound silly, but does the smoke of their torment rise for 15 minutes... or 24 hours... or a few years if it really doesn't mean "forever and ever." Why not simply let them fade into non-existence if that is an option and in your view where they are headed ultimately?
ReplyDeleteDaniel and dandechino, I really appreciate the conversation! What an important one.
ReplyDeleteDaniel, the Bible does not say how long the torment will last. It does say that the more wicked will be "beaten with many stripes" and the less wicked will be "beaten with few stripes." But that's all the information we have on it. I believe that the supreme truth of the Bible is that God is love. His goal isn't to make people suffer. I could not worship a God who claims to be love but who tortures people for the ceaseless ages of eternity.
dandechino, you raise three good points that I'd love to address. First, the picture of the burning "Gehennah" where "worm does not die." The argument is that since the fire burns continually and the worm lives, that then a human being would necessarily live on and on for eternity in this fire. Also, worms are decomposers; Jesus mentions them because they devour humans like fire; nowhere does he imply that since the worms don't die neither will the human beings. I'm going to quote the fine website helltruth.com here: "Christ here uses this valley of Hinnom to teach His hearers the fate that awaits the wicked. Certainly the Jews who heard His words could not possibly have obtained any idea of wicked, disembodied souls endlessly suffering. They saw in Hinnom dead bodies being devoured by flames, or if the flames did not reach them, then by worms, those ever-present agents of destruction and disintegration. The fact that the fires of Gehenna were ever kept burning, were “not quenched,” was the surest proof that whatever was cast into them would be entirely consumed. To declare that if a fire keeps ever burning, then whatever is cast into it keeps ever living, is to go contrary both to the evidence of our senses and to the testimony of Scripture."
The second thing you mentioned is the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Jesus is not describing reality in this parable. I think both sides would agree with that. Nobody believes that the saved go to a place called "Abraham's bosom" and that they communicate with the damned in "hell" who are begging for water. Nobody believes that a drop of water would quench the thirst of a writhing soul. Are we really going to watch the wicked burn for eternity? In this parable (it's just a parable), Jesus is pulling from paganism to illustrate a point. The Hebrew Bible did not teach that this was what happened when you die. The clear teaching in the Old Testament is that all go to the grave and "sleep." Let every matter be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. If there were one or two other verses in the Bible that described this as the reality, then I would believe it, but I can't take a whole doctrine from a parable.
The last thing to discuss is what motivates people to follow Jesus. You mentioned that if we don't teach a ceaseless hell, then people won't be motivated to accept Christ. This line of reasoning troubles me. Are we trying to scare people into obeying? I don't think that's what Jesus has in mind. Does he want people in heaven who want to be there or people who just didn't want to be in hell. Worst of all, though, I think that it paints such a distorted picture of God that it will turn people away. I think the common doctrine on hell has done more damage to the gospel than just about anything. But I'd love to continue the dialogue.
I hope I don't sound arrogant or to final about things. This is where I'm at right now as I search for Bible truth and come to know God and what he's like.
I really recommend, if you can find the time to read it, read every word of the website www.helltruth.com. I think the Bible is clear on the subject, but let's continue the dialogue. Thanks for the very good discussion.
The problem with this is that it is not enough. A flower does not tell me if I should worship the flower for its beauty or worship some external creator who made it. It does not tell me if my nature is good or evil, and it does not tell me if I should follow Jesus, Allah, or one of a million other gods or none of them.
ReplyDeleteThis is exactly why the flower is a better indicator of God's will. It doesn't tell you what to do. I think the sublime mystery of life is that God doesn't tell us what to do and we must stumble through in ignorance, making one mistake after another. That's how we learn.
I find solace in comfort in much of the Bible, but that doesn't prevent me from finding comfort in the Tao te Ching or the Lotus Sutra or the Quran.
Look, this blog is about critical thinking and the separation of church from the prime instrument of violence (State.) Don't go turning around and making GOD into the prime instrument of giving orders at gunpoint to replace the deposed State!
Dammerung, I think I have a pretty similar view of God as you do. We might disagree on the nature of the scriptures, but I also believe in a God who is not into giving orders at gunpoint. How can I believe both in a God of love and a God who says "do what I say, just because, or I'll put you in hell forever and ever." That's not loving. God does give us "commandments," but I see those as being the guidelines that a loving father gives to his children because it will most lead to their happiness and safety. I believe that God's punishment, judgment and wrath is of a different character than many Christians. See these two links:
ReplyDeletehttp://godscharacter.com/article.php/20091106102045183
http://godscharacter.com/staticpages/index.php/selected_topics
(on the second link, scroll down to "justice, wrath, and judgment" and see the links under that heading.)
I am surprised and impressed to find fellow solidly christian believers fervently against these wars.
ReplyDeleteAmen brother.
Scott: I have trouble taking seriously a god who declares, with a straight face, that shellfish are an "abomination." And isn't it funny that the priests wrote that God said that priests get all the best meat?
ReplyDelete"He is the invisible Spirit, of whom it is not right to think of him as a god, or something similar. For he is more than a god, since there is nothing above him, for no one lords it over him. For he does not exist in something inferior to him, since everything exists in him. For it is he who establishes himself. He is eternal, since he does not need anything. For he is total perfection. He did not lack anything, that he might be completed by it; rather he is always completely perfect in light. He is illimitable, since there is no one prior to him to set limits to him. He is unsearchable, since there exists no one prior to him to examine him. He is immeasurable, since there was no one prior to him to measure him. He is invisible, since no one saw him. He is eternal, since he exists eternally. He is ineffable, since no one was able to comprehend him to speak about him. He is unnameable, since there is no one prior to him to give him a name.
"He is immeasurable light, which is pure, holy (and) immaculate. He is ineffable, being perfect in incorruptibility. (He is) not in perfection, nor in blessedness, nor in divinity, but he is far superior. He is not corporeal nor is he incorporeal. He is neither large nor is he small. There is no way to say, 'What is his quantity?' or, 'What is his quality?', for no one can know him. He is not someone among (other) beings, rather he is far superior. Not that he is (simply) superior, but his essence does not partake in the aeons nor in time. For he who partakes in an aeon was prepared beforehand. Time was not apportioned to him, since he does not receive anything from another, for it would be received on loan. For he who precedes someone does not lack, that he may receive from him. For rather, it is the latter that looks expectantly at him in his light.
"For the perfection is majestic. He is pure, immeasurable mind. He is an aeon-giving aeon. He is life-giving life. He is a blessedness-giving blessed one. He is knowledge-giving knowledge. He is goodness-giving goodness. He is mercy and redemption-giving mercy. He is grace-giving grace, not because he possesses it, but because he gives the immeasurable, incomprehensible light.
--Apocryphon of John
Dammerung, the priests didn't write that...
ReplyDelete"Abomination." It does sound silly to us moderns. But that is how they expressed such things in that place and time. If God were speaking through a prophet today on this issue, I think he would say something like,
"I am your father. I want you to be healthy. I know what's good for you, because I made you. I also made the animals, and I know which ones are better for you. And those shellfish...those animals actually eat...well...crap. And I don't want my children eating poop. It's gross and it's not good for you. When you eat shrimp, you're eating poop! Seriously! I love you, and so I'm going to say that if you trust me, don't eat that stuff. But don't just trust me blindly; look into it and see if it makes sense. Because I would never command something that doesn't make sense and that isn't in your best interest."
That is what I believe God was trying to express in that commandment.
Oh, and one quick thing: I don't believe that the prophets speak and write the very words of God. I believe that God impresses them with thoughts, visions, ideas, dreams, and they use their own culturally relevant ways to express it. That's why I think we end up with stuff like "abomination," "God hates Esau", etc.
ReplyDeleteYahweh just doesn't strike me as a serious contender for God-of-the-Universe. At least the actions of Odin or Zeus make sense; they act like spoiled humans with fancy powers. Yahweh is neurotic and petty, like a cosmic Woody Allen who sends you to Hell for not liking his movies.
ReplyDeleteMore than anything Yahweh seems like a local tribal god who tried to rise above his station. In some ways he was successful; after all he's the singularly most worshipped god on Earth. On the other hand, he's kind of backed himself into a corner with some of his more bizarre proclamations.
It's hard for Yahweh to do take-backsies on things like suffering a witch to live, or homosexuality, when culture gets past it and suddenly millions of people have to live together witches and Christians alike.
I believe that God is love, and that the primary purpose of Lucifer, who challenged the governance of God in heaven, is to mischaracterize the character and government of God. Satan accuses God of being petty, vengeful, tyrannical, arbitrary, unforgiving, etc. Really, God is infinitely patient and loving, as revealed in God-in-the-flesh, Jesus. What is Yahweh like? Look at Jesus.
ReplyDeleteSo, why did he command the death penalty for witches, homosexuals, sabbath breakers, adulterers, etc.? Was this God's ideal? Is this what God really wanted to do? Apparently not, because Jesus showed us a better way when he said to the woman caught in adultery that he did not condemn her, and he saw to it that the levitical sentence was NOT executed. So, if it wasn't God's ideal, why did he have to command such a harsh punishment? Keep in mind that God's people had been under the tyranny of Egypt. They were used to a world where if something was wrong you got severely punished for it--probably death. So, if God is trying to communicate to the people that he loves that certain behavior is not what's best for them, then he can't do it gently, because the people don't speak that language. The death penalty was the only way to communicate to them that it was wrong. I would use the example of a 2-year-old wandering out to the street. You spank them and yell at them not because you're the kind of person that enjoys spanking and yelling, but because that's the only way to communicate the message to a 2-year-old. When the child is 15, it's not a "take-backsie" to stop spanking your child. It's progress. Like the parent of a child, God is forced to meet us where we're at. What amazes me is that he is willing to even take the risk of being misunderstood in the first place! He could just say "heck with you rebels, get out of my sight," but he pursues humanity, even if it means doing and saying things that he doesn't really want to do and say and which could paint him in a bad light.